Four Souls of Coyote is the Hungarian contender for the Best International Feature Film at the 96th Academy Awards coming up in 2024. The film is animated with mostly 2D work and retells a Native American creation myth as framed by the environmental crises that plague the modern world. It’s a gorgeous film that has already won the Jury Prize at the 2023 Annecy International Animation Film Festival. Director Áron Gauder sat down with us over Zoom to discuss the film and what it took to bring the story to screen.

Ayla Ruby: It’s very nice to meet you, first of all. I just finished watching the film and it was really lovely, so I’m excited to talk.
Áron Gauder: Okay. I’m excited to talk!

Ayla Ruby: Okay, so I was wondering if you could first tell me about the movie, in your words?
Áron Gauder: Okay, so it’s a long, long project. I think maybe the first thought came more than 10 years ago.
Ayla Ruby: Oh, wow.
Áron Gauder: It was just a wish to somehow put on canvas something about what I experienced in a forest and what I got from this culture, and I knew that people around me don’t know anything about it. So I just wished that this feeling of how we could live put on screen, but I don’t have the story yet. So it didn’t start it with a story. The story came later.

Ayla Ruby: Can you talk about your journey to the story, how you came up with the idea for it? You had this idea 10 years ago. How did you finally decide, “Okay, this is what I would like to talk about”?
Áron Gauder: So I’m an animation filmmaker, this I knew from since I am 12, and I had different topics. I had a feature film (The District!) earlier, which was about something in Budapest. In one district there is a lot of gypsies and they have some special kind of rap music, and it was about that. It’s like a ghetto movie, so it was really different. And after that we had a story about the Icelandic saga.

Ayla Ruby: Was that more mythology and folklore as well?
Áron Gauder: A little bit, but it was more like it’s based on a true event. It was a poet. There was a poet living there, and he made up the rhymes we know these days, on the end of the lines, there is a rhyme, earlier it was something different. And he lived in a harsh time so it was an interesting story, but we couldn’t finish it. And then it came so obvious to me because I’m familiar with Native American stories and cultures since I am 18. So it just came in my mind, “We should make a series of these tales.” Because there was a famous Hungarian musician here, like a Bob Dylan kind of guy, who was rebellious against the communist regime, and he collected Native American tales. We don’t know how, because at that time, it was really difficult to get them but he managed.

Ayla Ruby: Is this Tamás Cseh?
Áron Gauder: Yeah. So he collected these details, he translated it, and his son made illustrations and he published it. It was for kids, but also for adults. And they were much more authentic than anything else before that. And that was a hit, kind of. People loved it. And then we thought we can start with these details to make a series. And Tamás died, but he recorded these tales with his voice. And because he’s popular and famous, we could use his voice as a narration. This is how it started.

Ayla Ruby: So you have his stories, how did you maintain authenticity through the film? Because I think I read you had a lot of consultants, you had a lot of people working on it to try and make sure that authentic voices were coming through.
Áron Gauder: Yes. So we’re well aware that we’re white people and not Native. First, we tried to go to Canada to find some partnership or money for the series. But it wasn’t easy so we failed because everybody said it is beautiful and we like the idea, but we’re looking for something else, more entertaining, less serious. It doesn’t really fit in the business at that time. So we didn’t have much luck. And then we tried in France. We pitched many times and French people were really excited. But finally, it was all Hungarian money. So what we could do is contacted a person called Charles Cambridge, he’s from the University of Colorado, and he called himself an American Indian consultant. So he read the script and he had some adjustments, many actually. So we applied them while just writing the script. And later on, we also met Chris Eyre. He made Smoke Signals. He’s a filmmaker. He’s Cheyenne ancestry. And after that, we also connected musicians and they’re all Native performers. And it was really difficult from Hungary to get the rights, but we managed. So all the songs played in it, they’re contemporary Native American performers.

Ayla Ruby: I was wondering about that because they really stand out. They’re beautiful and they really complement the story and the artwork so well. So you said it was challenging a little bit to get the rights. Was there anything you were really happy that you managed to get the rights to with the music or anything you were really super excited to get?
Áron Gauder: Yeah, I love the music of Mariee Siou, I actually listen it. And when I was looking for music while just developing the whole storyboard, there was so many cheesy flute music. It’s hard to find something that really resonates. And her music was so good with one guitar and she’s singing. And she was happy, she said. She’s happy because from that money we paid her, she can make her new album. So that was a good thing. I know that now it’s really inappropriate to touch these kind of topics. But I also wanted to say that Hungarians are always resonated somehow with Native Americans because, first of all, we were Pagans before. We got Christians in 1000. We arrived from East, I mean we means Hungarians, and we lived in yurts, horse riding, arrow shooting, and with shamanism. And it’s still a strong tradition here doing shaman ceremonies. So we always felt connected somehow. But the knowledge was really limited through the Iron Curtain. So yeah, it wasn’t easy.

Ayla Ruby: So was there anything either music-wise or story-wise that really kind of inspired this part of it? After the Iron curtain fell and all of that, was there anything that really you were excited to dig into?
Áron Gauder: Yeah, I actually really loved clothing and I’m doing myself a lot of work with leather and made my own shoes. We spent time in a forest camping there, just being away from this crazy technology and all the societies. So we take children there, it’s like a commune in the forest for two weeks, no gadgets, no electricity, and we try to lead the way our ancestors lived. And I think we all benefit of this because the children can discover that they can be happy without anything, just being there. And it’s kind of a meditation, also. So that was inspiring. And through that experience, we could understand what Native American people always said in their speeches. I personally really love Chief Seattle, how he speaks is like a zen master or something like that. So we could understand their tradition through somehow experiencing living in the wild, if that makes sense?

Ayla Ruby: It does. And I want to shift a little bit to the animation because you said you knew you wanted to do animation since you were 12. And I’d love to talk about that and love to talk about were there… Was there any big difference going from short to this almost two-hour film? What was that like?
Áron Gauder: So the shorts were good practice. But if you work for a series on TV, it’s not the same quality. After that, we realized if we want to go on big screen in 4K and feature film, we had to work on the characters, the backgrounds. And animation, especially, it’s a much higher standard. And I think if you watch the old series, you can see the same characters appearing in a different form.

Ayla Ruby: Can you talk about the animation?
Áron Gauder: Yeah, actually it’s 95% traditional 2D animation, and I wanted this because that’s the most artistic to my opinion. And we managed to do the lines a bit more sketchy, fresh and carving-like.
Ayla Ruby: In the dream sequences, especially, it seems like that there’s the carvings and there are some sequences that very much are like that.
Áron Gauder: Yes. So I don’t know, I watch so many cave paintings, totem poles, a lot of Native and Aboriginal and all this kind of… they call it primitive art, but it means it’s more like naive, like they have a different view. So I was inspired of those. But the whole animation is really traditional except when the camera really moves, we use some 3D. And in Hungary, we have a really strong traditional 3D animation. So it’s a big industry, has a long past, and the quality is good and also cheap, at the same time.

Ayla Ruby: So you have your script, you have an idea, you have storyboards. What’s the process to actually get something on the screen? Can you run me through, if there’s a short version of it? Because I know it’s very complicated.
Áron Gauder: Yeah. There is a short version. So it has its own dramaturgy and it needs you to be humble because, and you have to believe in the thing. It’s a long process. It took five years to get the money. And in Hungary they said, “Why should we finance something which is so alien? It’s not Hungarian topic. Why should we finance this?” In other places, they were a bit afraid that this is hard to sell. It’s not for kids, it’s not for adults. They don’t like this kind of stuff. So finding the money was the hardest. But my producer, Réka, always said, “Don’t give up, just draw, just work on the visuals. We have more visuals, we are more convincing.” So this is what I did, she paid me. We had a lot of time to prepare. And finally, we could show almost the whole film not moving yet, but it was beautifully drawn, and then that was convincing. And also the name of the musician, because everybody know him, when I mentioned that he inspired me somehow, I don’t know why, but at the end, in Hungary, they gave us money

Ayla Ruby: And it’s worked out very well because you’re representing the country for Oscar contention, which is an amazing story. How did you find out? What was your reaction to finding out? What was that like?
Áron Gauder: It was a surprise because usually a country sent something, I guess, which is related to their culture. And that was a brave decision because, first of all, this is animation and animation was always on the side because we have live action movies and there’s a big fight to get in this, people lobby to get in this. And I don’t know, maybe because of the topic they thought that can give us a chance. I don’t know what was in their head, but it was totally surprising to me.

Ayla Ruby: Oh, that’s wonderful. So back to a little bit in the film, I’d love to know, was there anything that, was there any part of it that was your favorite, any bits that were just really exciting to bring to life or that you just really loved within, besides all of it?
Áron Gauder: Yeah, my favorite scene is when Coyote makes these little children characters and then the Old Creator Man comes and they have this argument and he kind of is proud of his creatures and they say, “They might be weak, but they’re going to grow up. “So that part, for me, that’s my favorite.

Ayla Ruby: So there’s the sequence where the coyote is now in the real world, he’s not just in the dream world in these four spirits, right?
Áron Gauder: Yeah.
Ayla Ruby: He’s pulling himself back together. Can you talk about the reason behind that, the thought behind that, and what all that kind of means?
Áron Gauder: Okay. So these elements are from different coyote tales. So I read maybe 200 coyote tales from different nations, different tribes. They all have stories with coyote. And that was one story when the coyote grabs a comet and he go with a comet on a ride, but it’s too fast and he falls down, he fell apart and he puts himself together. And the great mysterious gave him more lives, sometimes four, sometimes more. But it’s borrowed from there.

Ayla Ruby: Okay, that’s very cool. So there’s a contemporary part of the film, too, obviously. There’s the pipeline, the protest. Can you talk about incorporating that and how it all weaves together?
Áron Gauder: Yeah. So when we developed the script, the film gave us some consultants. So they checked on us how does it go, and they kind of forced the idea of a frame story because they said if a random person in Hungary goes to the cinema, we can’t push him in the middle of Native American creation because it’s such a big cultural dive or distance that we need some transition. And I hated this idea. I don’t like it. It felt forced to me. And then when we struggled with it, then Standing Rock happened. I think it was in 2016. I don’t know exactly, but it happened around that time and it was all in the news. So I told them, “If we make a frame story, then let’s make it real, like something strong,” and that’s why. And I guess that’s also finally I like it because that means the creation started then, but now it’s in danger, then we still have things to do. It’s not in the far past, nice story, but it’s still happening. So, oh, how can I say it? It’s in danger, that it’s happening everywhere, and maybe it’s more universal because similar things happens all around the world.

Ayla Ruby: You alluded to it there, is there a message that you want people to take away from this and that you want them to know about this?
Áron Gauder: Yeah, and that was a cry for help. When they asked me why as a white person dealing with this kind of topic, because I saw in the news that they say, “Help us, join us, because they’re still shooting us now on our treaty land with…” It’s a cry for help, and a lot of people all around the world, they said, “We are standing with Standing Rock.” So I’m standing with Standing Rock with this movie.

Ayla Ruby: Oh, that’s wonderful. Well, this has been a really good conversation. Thank you.
Áron Gauder: Thank you.