The John Wick franchise is no stranger to a Keanu Reeves stunt doubles expanding their talent into a new role and Jackson Spidell, the previous double for Reeves on the first three Wick films, is back in the world of John Wick but this time as a Stunt Coordinator on From the World of John Wick: Ballerina. Spidell spoke with Offscreen Central about how special it was to work on the fight between Reeves and Ballerina star Ana de Armas, growing within the franchise, and how working with 87Eleven pushes the stunts to safely be the best they can be.

Kenzie Vanunu: Congratulations From the World of John Wick: Ballerina! I also was able to see Wick Is Pain at the Aero screening, so you’re having quite the summer!
Jackson Spidell: Oh, yeah! That’s awesome!

Kenzie Vanunu: Yeah, it was so fun in the theater. I wish more people got to see it that way. Most people know you started out in the world of John Wick as Keanu [Reeves]’s stunt double and now you’re back in the universe but as a stunt coordinator, which is so thrilling. Especially given the franchise started with Chad [Stahelski], who was also a previous stunt double for Keanu. 
Jackson Spidell: [Laughs] Very ridiculous. I tried to get out and they just pulled me back in.
Kenzie Vanunu: Pulled you right back in!
Jackson Spidell: Art is life, apparently!

Kenzie Vanunu: So, how has that been for you to grow within this franchise that just continues to challenge itself as well?
Jackson Spidell: It was really fun to come back. It’s that love-hate relationship because you know you’re going to work so hard. And the funny thing is being the double is, I won’t say easier, but you’re more focused on, ‘what am I learning today? How do I teach this to him?’ I’m focused on him. And I have to learn this choreography as well. So, you’re more enveloped in the learning process.

So now, and through the experience of the Wick movies, that I was fortunate enough to soak in, to come in and now be the person going, ‘all right, this is what you’re going to learn. And this is how we’re going to teach you.’ It was very rewarding, honestly. So, it was really nice to be back.

Kenzie Vanunu: Awesome. I love that. As a film fan, just in general, and as a critic, I think the conversation that has developed over the last few years really started with the John Wick franchise taking over, like how much work an entire stunt team does for an action sequence. Whereas before I really feel like it was kind of just like, ‘oh, that’s cool.’ And people moved on from the conversation. But I feel like this franchise has really like invigorated more people being so interested with how much work goes into it. And watching all of this behind-the-scenes footage that’s been released of Ballerina you can see the general interest in it, which is so cool to see you guys all working on it. How different is it working on a film in this universe versus a lot of the others you’ve been on? You’ve worked on so many in the last like five years, looking at your IMDb is crazy.
Jackson Spidell: [Laughs] Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Like with you work with Marvel and a lot of things are CG and you have a lot of wire work, which is a huge talent amongst itself, but the rigging team with those rehearsals and stuff and the R&D with that. So, you have a lot of assists and stuff to fall back on.

And with these movies, everything is pretty much as organic as we can. The falls are real. The chip off of ice block is real. The car hits are real. Yeah, you might have a green screen behind you every once in a while, but the action, the explosions and the stunts are real. The bruises are real. Sometimes the blood is real. But we do it and throughout all of the work in the rehearsals, that’s kind of where we like to say that’s where you wear your bruises like a badge of honor. That takes you forward with the experience to make sure when we’re on the day, everyone knows they have their I’s dotted, their T’s crossed, that everyone’s going to be safe.

And as violent as we make it and make it look, we’ve crossed the barrier between, ‘oh, this could be dangerous’ to, ‘OK, no, we have it under control. It’s going to look gnarly, but everyone’s going to go home safe and sound.’ And I think circling back to you saying like watching the behind the scenes and everyone now kind of focused more on stunts, as ironic as it is, we have people like Keanu and Ana [de Armas] and people like Tom Cruise as well, where it is an honor to us that they want to train so hard in our respective talent or our respective industry.

And so, for them to put in all of that work, they know what we have to go through for the most part. And for them to talk about the stunt team and what the stunt team did for them and what they learned. Like that’s a big honor for us, for them to go through all that trouble, because not everyone has to do that. A lot of people will go to their own respect, ‘go, great, that’s OK, that’s when we’re going to. OK, so let’s bring him in. I’m going to be over here.’ But these actors are going, ‘no, I want to do as much as I can. And even if I get hurt, like I get it, they do it every day. So, and this is why I’m here. So, let’s do it.’

Kenzie Vanunu: Yeah, you can definitely feel the difference. Audiences can see the difference of those actors and these kind of films versus some other films you see. So glad to know it’s not just us noticing that. Something I love about the world of John Wick it feels every department is hands on with one another. Something I learned from Wick is Pain with the stunt not working from rehearsal to in full costume on set is how important that is… On Ballerina, are there any specific moments that changed from rehearsal to what we see in the final film?
Jackson Spidell: I’ll still be going to sleep and just be like, ‘no, no. OK, no, I’m not. I’m good. I’m in bed. Great. I’m not falling. I’m not sliding down.’ [Laughs]

No, we made sure that everything was kind of dialed in and nothing major changed on the day. Obviously, like a lot of times choreography will change. We’ll go, ‘no, sorry, we don’t have time for this one. So, we’re going to cut this,’ and we’ll always have like contingency plans as well.

We’ll have the long version, medium version, the truncated version, but still like they’ll all be in its respective nature. But no, with like anything big like falls or fire or anything like that, we made sure that that was clean cut. Like we know what we’re doing. We know the timing. We know where everyone’s going. That’s not going to change.

Kenzie Vanunu: Yeah, there are lots of elements in Ballerina. Fire, water, more fire, snow. Like we have it all.
Jackson Spidell: Almost like the Captain Planet rings.

Kenzie Vanunu: Every time you were traveling, I was like, ‘oh, no. Like what is the next element that is coming for this poor girl?’
Jackson Spidell: We were waiting for slime, just one time.

Kenzie Vanunu: The fight between John and Eve is really fun to watch even though audiences are rooting for them both in some way.
Jackson Spidell: Like Mom and Dad fighting.
Kenzie Vanunu: No, literally! What was it like working on that sequence with Keanu and Ana?
Jackson Spidell: That sequence was very special to us, especially me, because I didn’t get to do John Wick: Chapter 4. I had to be elsewhere, but I did the first three [films]. Me and Keanu got to know each other very well. Still keep in touch. But yeah, so not to do that one was a bummer. Vincent [Bouillon] became the double on that one, and he killed it, did amazing. So, to come back and in this and go, ‘I’m coordinating now,’ I’m kind of like leading the rehearsals. 

But then it’s, ‘we’re going to give you a fight with Eve.’ It was funny, the one of the arguments was, ‘how do you have this brand-new character have a grand fight with a person who’s just proved in four movies that he’s pretty much unbeatable.’ And I was like, that’s the exact point… I don’t want this like, ‘clash, clash, clash.’ I want her to be her tenacious self no stopping her. But he’s just like, goes, ‘here’s another lesson. Stop it. OK, now you’re just annoying me.’ We’ll keep going and going. That’s the Ballerina mentality of her. She’ll go through the shit nonstop, but she’ll just keep pushing forward, pushing forward. It won’t be clean. It won’t be calculated. But the tenacity that she has is what makes her overcome every other obstacle. Except him.

Like I said, we didn’t want like a like a head-to-head battle like, oh, ‘who’s going to win… what’s going to happen.’ I thought that was a really cool aspect that we brought to the table. And yeah, watching them work together because they’ve known each other for a while. I know that he kind of gave her some insight to what to expect from this franchise, especially in training and rehearsals and stuff. And I’m sure it ended with, ‘are you sure you want to do this? OK, great. Join the club.’  And she did. And to watch them both laugh and have that. It also was kind of the thing of like he’s been doing Wick over a decade.

Kenzie Vanunu: Yeah. I love seeing them together. That’s what I love about the fight choreography is like the storytelling through it. John has been doing this, it’s so easy to him and Eve is just so passionate about what she needs to get to her end goal that it was really interesting to see those two kinds of stories like going at it.
Jackson Spidell: So, he knows the rehearsal energy and what he’s going to go through. Watching them do choreography together, it was funny. It was almost like dad teaching a daughter in a sense. And then she picks up choreography so fast and that they just escalated so much to where we’re like, ‘all right, OK, let’s up it even more. Let’s keep going. Let’s keep going and test them and see what they can do.’ Yeah, they were amazing.

Kenzie Vanunu: With the recent announcement of a Stunt Design Academy Award that will be awarded first in 2028, I think we’ll finally see a well-deserved focus from award season and the world of film criticism on stunts. What does it mean to you as an artist in the stunt film world to have the Academy take this step to honor your craft? 
Jackson Spidell: It’s a huge honor. I think I think the big thing is the support that we got from other departments and the actors and actresses that have worked with us that have been very vocal about stunts being recognized at Oscars. Throughout the past couple years, it’s just soared. And so, for them to accept us as a category is just it means a lot. And so, yeah, we’re all just very excited about it.

Kenzie Vanunu: We are all very excited to have the Academy recognize the stunt community! Well, thank you so much for speaking with me! I’m so excited for everyone to see From the World of John Wick: Ballerina and can’t wait to see what you do next!
Jackson Spidell: Awesome, thank you so much!

From the World of John Wick: Ballerina is currently in theaters.
You can read our review of the film here.