Visual Effect supervisors James Alexander and Michael Ralla sat down with Offscreen Central to discuss their work on the film, Sinners! James and Michael chat about how they filmed actor Michael B. Jordan in a dual role, collaborating with the various departments, hidden visual effects you may not realize, and working with director Ryan Coogler.

Sarah Abraham: Thank you so much for joining me today. I’m so excited to speak with you both. So, the movie’s main characters are twins, both played by Michael B. Jordan, and, naturally, they’re going to appear on screen together at the same time a lot throughout the whole film. Can you talk about how you first started going about creating those effects for that, since it is so pivotal to the film? What were the first conversations had between you two, and maybe with the director [Ryan Coogler] and cinematographer [Autumn Durald Arkapaw] to go about making it seem so seamless whenever the twins are on screen together? 
Michael Ralla: James, do you want to take this one this time? I think we need to condense our answers a little bit so that we give Sarah a chance to actually get all her questions. 
James Alexander: We have a tendency to talk, talk, talk, and not stop. So, Sarah, anytime we’re going too far you just let us know. But, yes, thank you. That’s a really good question, and you’re right. It was one of the first things that we needed to analyze as soon as we got into the show and being the students of cinema history that we are, it’s a particularly interesting challenge, because twinning is something that has happened throughout cinematic history. From the early 1920s and 30s, there were effects that really pioneered split screen approaches in films of that era. What we wanted to do was, first of all, whenever possible, film Michael B. Jordan. So, we looked at the complexities of shots that could come our way, and looked at different methodologies we could apply for different scenarios. So, we wanted to, kind of, build a menu and say, “If we’ve got this type of shot, what’s the best approach that we can use?” We wanted to keep it as simple as possible. We always wanted to give Ryan the control and the freedom to shoot the movie as he would shoot a movie as if there were no visual effects requirements at all. So, he had his directorial agency to work with Michael B. Jordan as he would in a normal movie, and not be hindered at all by the visual effects. That was super important to us. What we did was we created a decision matrix, which is kind of an awkwardly geeky way to say it was kind of a list to say, “If we’ve got two twin faces on screen at the same time, then we need to figure out a way to achieve that,” and “Wherever possible, we would film Michael B. Jordan twice.” So, the simplest version of that would be you’ve got a camera that doesn’t move, and so you film an A side performance and a B side performance, and then you can put them together. Then it becomes more complex when you have a moving camera, so you need to repeat a camera move. For those instances, we used a tool called the TechnoDolly, which is a crane on wheels that’s able to move very nimbly and has a huge range of movement, but you can replicate a camera move. Once you have a tape that you like, you can log and replicate it. That means that all of a sudden you’ve got two plates that have the same camera move, and you can capture an A side performance and a B side performance. Where that gets tricky is when there’s any interaction between the twins. Once the twins are crossing over, or touching each other, or interacting in any way, then the plate approach becomes difficult, and that’s when we looked at digital face replacements for which we built the halo rig, which was a bespoke piece of technology we designed for this film that allowed us to capture Michael B. Jordan’s performance in specific lighting settings per scene, and built a data set from which we were able to create a digital face to make sure we captured his performance and were able to create the twinning effect that way. 

Sarah Abraham: That’s really, really cool, and it sounds very complex! You’re saying you’re creating these different creations to help capture this performance in a way that..I’m assuming neither of you have had to do a film like this in the past or work with a character that is a twin played by one person? So, that’s awesome. Did you guys draw inspiration from any dual performances in the past, or look at the visual effects on previous films to help you with creating the work for this project? 
Michael Ralla: Yes, we did. I mean, to be honest, that’s always the first thing that we do, you know, like proper research. Curiosity is the driver for everything, for creativity. So, we researched properly what’s out there, which films were made with what technology? There’s the V stack light, and there’s simple split screens with, like, optical printer matting, and all that. There’s an article that came out in the New York Times today that talks about exactly that, just a famous plug-in. James and I, before we signed onto the movie, we went across town in Los Angeles, and we were talking to everyone who basically was offering something that could be used for that. What’s interesting is, in the context of a 65 millimeter IMAX production, there’s a certain level of fidelity required that you can’t get with some of the tech that’s out there. For instance, I was waiting for my son to say, “Just do a face swap! I’ve got this app and I’ve seen it on TikTok 1000 times.” But, the moment you see the film projected on the biggest screen, not just in the nation, but worldwide, it can’t get any bigger than this. That’s when you’re like, “Oh, okay. We need to step up the game a little bit and properly research.” The safest avenue to get Michael that looks like Michael is to shoot him twice, but as James said, it gets a little bit more tricky the moment the camera starts moving, but we can figure that out. Then ,the coordination and the syncing between departments, because everything needs to happen exactly at the same time as it has, what we call the “baked in timing” and “the A side,” when we shot Michael the first time as one of the tins before he changed his wardrobe.

However, the moment you have really complex interactions, that’s when it gets a little bit more complicated. I remember even saying to James when I heard, “Oh, it’s a vampire film and Michael B. Jordan is in it twice as twins,” I was like, “I bet they’re going to be fighting each other at the very end!” Of course, they did. So, fighting means physical interaction, heavy handed, like, full on! We wanted to be ready for that and that’s when we looked at everything that was out there. There’s a lot of good technology, but some of that just necessitates that Michael, after each scene, just has to go somewhere else in a trailer and then do the whole thing, completely ripped out of the environment and the setting that he was just acting in. We didn’t want that, so we developed this halo rig that he can just put on. It’s a harness with a 360 camera filming his whole head performance, not just his face. What was really paramount is that it had to be Michael, Michael’s face. It had to be Michael’s performance, it couldn’t be someone else. It had to be the data set that we captured in that very moment, that was very important. Like Ryan said on Jimmy Fallon, there’s the halo and it looks really fancy and all that, but, I haven’t counted yet…I still really need to because this [statistic] comes up quite often. Ryan said it was 90% Michael for real, shooting him twice. I think it was a little bit less than that, a little bit more halo. We were just trying to always use the best tech and approach that we could and, you know, the fact that we were shooting 65 millimeter IMAX, which is this huge frame, just made everything a little bit more complicated, but we’re always up for a good challenge. 

Sarah Abraham: That’s awesome. You mentioned the twins do fight on screen, and those scenes were very impressive. I think, for me, the opening shot of them where they’re passing the cigarette to each other, that was so mind blowing. My friend that I was with, she tapped me on the shoulder in the middle of a packed theater going, “Oh my god!” If I remember correctly, one of the twins comes out from the side, like the camera is moving that way. How did you make that cigarette passing shot just seem like there’s real twins right there? 
Michael Ralla: We shot real twins! No. 
Sarah Abraham: You cloned Michael, right then and there! 
Michael Ralla: So the whole reveal was that we knew that was going to be a tent pole shot, like a pivotal moment that cements and just establishes the twins for the rest of the film. That was one shot where I said from the get go, “No matter what, we’re going to shoot Michael twice, no matter how hard it’s going to be.” I remember the conversations with Ryan, because [that scene] explains the relationship between the two. You know, [one of the twins] “Smoke” has a tremor and he can’t roll the cigarettes. “Stack” [the second twin] actually isn’t even really smoking. He’s just rolling the cigarettes for his brother because he’s got calm hands, and that’s why the cigarette is being handed off. I think there’s a theme later on in the film where [Smoke] goes, “I need a cigarette,” and “Stack” goes, “Okay, coming right up.” I asked Ryan, “What do you think? How many times are they going to hand it over,” and Ryan went, “Yeah you know, maybe once, maybe twice?”

We did a test shoot just to try that all out and compare the different techniques, and then he was like, “Let’s do it seven times.” That amped up the complexity a little bit and I think we ended up shooting seven times. It also took 18 takes just to get one side, and then we still had to pick one and shoot a B side with Michael dressed as the other twin. But, I mean, we rehearsed it, we tried, we failed. This is one thing that I think is important, that you fail fast. I mean, essentially, the way it works is that it’s all about when you play back what we shot before, that needs to be in sync with the camera. So, we had the moment that you go to a specific position in time on the timeline, the arm and the crane would move to that position that it had when it was filmed. Then, we roped in our friends from sound, and they created little, what is called ADR beeps. Three beeps would tell the guys when they had to hand off the cigarette, but the cigarette handover also needed to happen at exactly the same position in space, not only in time,  but also in space. There was a little carbon fiber rod, a marker, a spatial marker, that would tell them, “Okay, at this point in time when you hear the this beat, you need to land here on this marker,” and then with the cigarette, then the other person would grab it at the very moment, and then from there, obviously, it’s the human element. Michael’s timing is impeccable and incredible, but there was still a lot of compositing magic involved in making it all seamless. We made it happen, it’s two Michaels, no replacements whatsoever. We shot it for real. 

Sarah Abraham: I’m assuming it was summer, wasn’t it? You filmed in the summer? 
Michael Ralla: June, yeah. 120 degrees, or whatever the temperature was. 
Sarah Abraham: It was probably very sticky and very hot. What a bunch of troopers you are! You don’t think about, when filming something twice, that you have to move at the same time and also be in the same space. 
Michael Ralla: While everyone else is sweltering, but in their swamp gear and dressed as coolly as possible, Michael B. Jordan is doing that precise performance and hitting those markers and those beats, dressed in the heaviest woolen suits you can imagine. So, even one more degree of complexity and difficultness with the alligators coming out of the swamp for a visit. 

Sarah Abraham: The alligators wanted their own cameo! You brought up the suit, that’s a good segue. This is a big period piece and it’s a very distinct visual style. Was there a conscious effort between you guys so that the visual effects don’t impede or distract from the costumes or set design? 
Michael Ralla: That was something that I’ve heard many times from the cinematographer, because she was very adamant that…”You guys in Visual Effects have a tendency to make shit up. Don’t make shit up!” You need an actual physical representation of what it is supposed to be. Then, the other aspect that goes into that, and this is typical for Ryan’s films. Like, I remember after I got the call from Ryan’s team and I said, “I need to do this with James, no one else,” I called James and was like, “Look, Ryan’s not just making films with a bunch of guys; He’s making films with his friends.” It’s really cool to be invited into that circle that also comes with an insane amount of collaboration, which is really rewarding.

Just constant conversations about how we were going to do this, and it’s never just a single department figuring it all out. For instance, in terms of maintaining the period accuracy, the one thing that comes to my mind is, for instance, the train station. We actually had a set that only had one train station main building and some life tracks that no one was allowed to step on. Then, a city was around it that was completely period inaccurate. We were doing a CG train, and a pretty massive city set extension on the other side of the tracks and all that, and when it came to that, we were not just building it; we were concepting. It’s really important to also say that Ryan wanted a human component. There was no AI generative mid journey stuff like that. We hired people who would actually do the concepts, but we were not doing that in isolation. Even though we were deep into post production, we would still loop back with Hannah Beachler, the production designer, and ask her, “How do you envision this?” She was in South Africa on the next project already at that point in time, but we were going back and forth about what should this particular sign say, and this building should be made of a specific color of bricks. That’s really important for all of Ryan’s films. He hires people he really trusts, and then he doesn’t necessarily tell them what to do. He wants everyone to just bring their A game to the table and, basically, elevates all the contributors. That’s how you get a product like Sinners, which is just a culmination of all of that. To answer your question; collaboration, and the constant conversations with all the other departments. 
James Alexander: I was just going to say that early in the project, we had a round table presentation from each of the heads of the departments for Ryan and for the studio to talk about the overall approach, from costumes, production design, cinematography, stunts, special effects, visual effects, and of course, hearing Ruth Carter [costume designer], Hannah Beachler, and Autumn Durald Arkapaw talk about the research they’d done into the film and the history of Mississippi in the mid 1930s. In Hannah’s case, how the buildings were painted, why they were painted that way, and the meanings behind the look of the buildings that she was recreating.

In Ruth’s case, the materials that were used in clothing and the way that they might have been repaired. Many times, hearing just the passion and the rigor that everyone had brought to that exercise was so inspiring and such a privilege to be a part of. I think that was just such a powerful moment to be in that room and be part of that conversation. Really, from that point onwards, it kind of cemented that we’ve got to honor all of the work that everyone else is doing. There’s so much incredible craft in front of the camera and really visual effects were there to support that, to make sure that we never deviated from it and just help everybody else achieve the film. 

Sarah Abraham: That’s so amazing to hear all of that. It’s really cool to hear that the different departments collaborated so smoothly, you really see it on the big screen. 
Michael Ralla: You know, there’s a really good example that tells you how this all went, because I actually learned from that. So, we created a digital train. The train also has passenger carriages and they are pullman carriages, which I had never heard of before, I wasn’t familiar with them. We were talking about that train with Hannah, then Ruth came into that conversation because she was like, “You know, they are actually prepping a couple of pullman porters,” and then I was like, “What does that mean?” Ruth says, “Well, they’re actually porters waiting right next to the Pullman carriage entrance or the stairs, and that was a real career, especially for black people during the 1930s that would allow them to step up, climb up the social ladder, so I was collecting a visual reference.” I was like, “Oh, wow. There’s really a lot of history into all of that,” so we were trying to be as faithful as possible to all of that. That’s the classic thing that every visual effects department says, but I think we really hammered that home to an extreme, making sure that we replicate what the lenses do with all the aberrations that the cinematographer loves, and the film stock on all of that.

Then, the one thing I think is worth mentioning is the connective tissue during the meeting was the blues, everyone loved the blues. I remember opening the presentation on that day like, “Oh, don’t be fooled by the $10 Metallica shirt that I’m wearing right now!” Blues here and there, and I grew up learning how to play like the blues and all of that. Even “Delta Slim” (Delroy Lindo) explains that in his monologue. I was blown away, there was so much collaboration with [composer] Ludwig Göransson. I remember getting that text message one day where he was like, “Have you heard Lars playing drums on the soundtrack?” “Are we talking about Lars Ulrich?” “Yeah, you should check it out!” 

Sarah Abraham: Oh man, the score was really good. I’m sure guys know that, too. My last question…so we talked a little bit about Ryan Coogler and his previous films and how he works with his friends. For him, his films are known for their characters. He has a very raw approach to it, to capture the human emotions going on onscreen. What was it like working with him, for the two of you and what about his filmmaking approach and how he leads everyone inspired you and your crafts on this journey? 
Michael Ralla: This is what I call, “Ryan Superpower.” I find he’s got this unusually high level of emotional intelligence that basically allows him to, not feel what his talent is feeling in that moment, but to feel what the people that the talent are playing feel in that very moment, and that transcends behind the camera and below the line. He’s just an all around good human, and I think James turned that out the other day he could speak to that more, that Ryan’s always the same guy, you know? The Ryan that you see explaining the different film formats and aspect ratios for 10 minutes, that’s the Ryan that we were working with everyday while we were shooting this. 
James Alexander: That’s the Ryan in pre-production, that’s the Ryan on set every day, that’s the Ryan who goes on Jimmy Fallon and it’s incredible that he takes on so much and he’s always, always ready to listen to what everyone’s got to say to him. If you talk to Ryan on set and there’s a million things going on, you have his attention and he’s listening to exactly what you’re saying. So, he’s just open to if you need to speak to him at any moment, he locks in and you have his attention, which is incredible to see when there’s so much going on. Of course, he’s steering this colossal ship with so many people around him, but he’s always that person and he’s so personable and welcoming. You know, this was my first movie, my first time working with Ryan.

Michael, as he said, brought me onto this show and it was incredibly impressive to see how he is able to navigate and how he is able to connect with everybody on set, not just with the actors and the talent and direct them, but with the crew. I think that’s what most people think of when they think of a director, that he’s directing the actors, but Ryan connects with everybody on the team and I think everybody feels that connection. I think that’s really a big part of why he’s so successful. 

Sarah Abraham: That’s really cool to hear and lovely answers from both of you for all of these questions. Thank you so much. 

Michael Ralla: You know what, Sarah? If you have a couple more minutes, I think what would really be worth talking about is the collaboration with special effects and special effects makeup, because that was, especially special effects makeup, is something that…because everyone’s asking us about the twin aspects because that’s the most visible thing. But, especially the collaboration with special effects makeup, was something I’ve never seen before. It starts with the vampire eyes, which are actual practical lenses, contact lenses that people were wearing, and this goes back to the, “don’t make sh*t up!” They put these real lenses in. They couldn’t really see much with them, so anytime somebody had to walk, interact, or do a little bit more, we would just put in digital replicas of these exact lenses, but we didn’t make it look like it was actually based. There was a whole conversation about what the eyes should look like, and the studio was interested in just making them visible throughout the film, which we ended up doing and I think it’s great, but Ryan said, “I just want the eyes.”

I think it’s really effective. It was recreating what Mike Fontaine and the special effects makeup team was doing. The same goes for “Remmick’s” (Jack O’Connell) death at the very end. He created different stages of that demise. It starts very subtle and then the shirt, there’s a flameless burn off of the shirt, and it goes away. Then, he created all that flesh and those defamations and the scars. We took that and made it move, and added smoke and glow. The same goes for the stunts. They set a guy on fire that we shot for real! It was another one of those moments where I was like, “Are you out of your mind? Why do we have to?” It’s because we needed to know what it looks like. We were going to use as much of that real fire as we can, and if we can’t use it then we’re going to match our digital fire to it. That was kind of the approach throughout the film; that we would be a photographic counterpart to everything we do. We’re never going to start with a completely empty frame, with a black frame, and then somebody in a dark room is going to create it all based on what they think it should be, because then they’re missing the input from the production designer, wardrobe, grip, gaffer, lighting. So, just because we can do that, doesn’t mean you have to do it. We were always trying to bring in everyone into that equation. The same goes for special effects. There’s a huge amount of special effects in this. The burning roof we shot? We set the actual juke on fire on the last day. 

Sarah Abraham: Thank you for adding all that. That’s honestly so cool and you were right; it is part of visual effects for film that people don’t necessarily think are effects. They’re equally important to every other aspect. 
Michael Ralla: You know, there’s more than 1000 shots in the whole film. I’ve been perusing social media, and I’m so glad that no one’s talking about the visual effects, because a lot of people think there aren’t any in the film, and that it was all in camera. Like, great! Mission accomplished! 
James Alexander: Well one thing in particular that Michael just made is a huge part of the story is the tone and the feel of Mississippi in 1932. We did have practical cotton plants on set that were hibiscus plants dressed with button balls. I think we had maybe 50 plants in total when we filmed, so every single one of those shots that you see that has cotton fields in the background is a shot where we created the environment. I think some of those shots are the most successful in that regard, as being ones that really help tell the story and set the tone for the film, but don’t look like visual effects shots at all, but a huge amount of work did indeed go into them. 
Michael Ralla: You know, there’s actually a good emotional backstory to that as well. To quickly tell you, I remember the reference we got from Ryan was actually from his iPhone when he was driving to location while he was shooting Black Panther: Wakanda Forever. I think it was about two hours south of Atlanta, and he was being driven and then saw a cotton field for the first time in his life. He asked the driver to stop so that he could film it, because he was like, “Look, this is a part of my history,” so that’s what he gave us as a reference. The other thing that, to him, was really important is, you know Mississippi is the flattest place in the United States.

You have a horizon that doesn’t stop, it just keeps going. He explained to us that it should be a sea of white, all the way to the horizon and then big blue skies with dramatic clouds. That’s what we did for those shots. They’re not blue screens. They’re real driving shots. There happened to be lots of sugar cane fields, like really high and tree lines in the distance. So we shot it for real, but then we put cotton fields and dramatic skies in there. 

Sarah Abraham: That’s incredible, It’s emotional, the story of it, but it’s definitely beautiful. I think that’s one of the good things art can do; to help heal a lot of internalized trauma that some people may not realize that they are carrying with them. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. Thank you both so much for your time and for being here. 
James Alexander: Thank you, Sarah!
Michael Ralla: Thanks, Sarah!

Sinners is currently in theaters.
You can read our review of the film here.