Twenty Four years later the arena is welcoming audiences back for Gladiator II. The visionary himself Ridley Scott has assembled quite a team of frequent collaborators to continue his version of Ancient Rome on a more bloody and brutal scale than ever before. The ultimate task of finding who would take over the mantle of leading this second installation, Offscreen Central was lucky enough to talk to casting director Kate Rhodes James on the challenges of casting Lucius, going off instinct for casting, and the significance of maintaining audience believability.

Jillian Chilingerian: Hi, I’m excited I get to talk to you today.
Kate Rhodes James: Thank you. Nice to meet you.

Jillian Chilingerian: I’m so blown away by this cast. It’s a perfect ensemble. What were the different conversations about what was needed for this continuation of the story?
Kate Rhodes James: Well, I’ve worked with Ridley and have done it for quite a long time now, so it’s a natural progression that you go on to the next project. This is particularly enjoyable because there was nobody attached. A lot of the previous projects I’ve done with Ridley, Matt Damon, and Ben Affleck were attached, and Gaga for Gucci. This was exciting and also, very much in my skillset because this is all about those sorts of extraordinary actors that theatrical actors understand what is going to be needed of them. There were long conversations about Lucius, and for all the obvious reasons, a lot of people were talked about. It was very hard, you needed an actor that would step up. Some young actors were already established. Would they have the desire to step up in the way that Paul has? The commitment that he made to his physical change was huge, and also not just about because a lot of young men that are gym fit are not appropriate for what we needed. Ridley had seen Normal People, and I was at the London Film Festival, so I went off and watched. Aftersun and God’s creatures, which I hadn’t seen yet. That gave me the confidence to be able to say to Ridley, I think you should meet Paul. I think Paul is a born leading actor and a lot of people are not born leading actors but think they are. It took us a few months, and then the minute Ridley met him, that was it. He’s very instinctive and I’m very instinctive, which is why we enjoy working with each other. He doesn’t need to see 300 people, he just wants me to do my job and present the best people for the role. Then after that, it was just obvious Connie Nielsen was already established, Derek Jacobi was already established and then the rest, when you’re working with Ridley and you’re working on Gladiator, you can go anywhere. People like Pedro and Denzel were very, very immediate, and they wanted to do it. It was a joy, but casting the emperors and casting Vigo and Ravi, that’s when I get to sort of get my hands on everything rather than offering you get in the room with them, you put them on tape. That’s what we did with Joe and Fred and somebody asked me at a Q and A the other day, was I influenced by Joaquin? Well, of course, I mean, I looked at the film again, and you had to, we had to really identify what certain elements in there made it something else. One of the elements was the humor with David Hemmings as master of ceremonies and Oliver Reed people like that, which made me think, oh, we should be going towards people like Matt Lucas to be master of ceremonies, who’s glorious in it, and Tim McInerney is the senator, who’s just spectacular because I’ve worked with Ridley for a while now. He trusts me to do my job, to go down those roads. I mean, sometimes he’ll say, Don’t be ridiculous and that’s fine. He’s the one who’s going to be on set with him, not me, but this was an incredibly enjoyable, nourishing experience, without a doubt.

Jillian Chilingerian: I think when people hear, Gladiator II, you go, Oh, my God, who’s, like, the strong person and you have this idea of this type of man, but do they have the thing? Paul’s past works of independent films it’s an interesting transformation to see him doing this, there’s just something so magnetic. In this movie, there are so many emotional through lines, especially with his mother, and dealing with grief and all these, complex feelings, he makes so much sense. I love that this project for a lot of like Pedro and Fred and Joe and Paul, it’s very much like, these are movie stars.
Kate Rhodes James: At the time, they weren’t movie stars, they are now. There’s always a sort of fear but there was no fear, from my point of view. I think it’s William Goldman who says nobody knows anything and I subscribe to that. I’ve been doing this job for 30 years, and the longer I do it, the more nobody knows anything. It is instinct that’s the only thing you have and that is your currency. Without that, it’s binary and it becomes boring and you can see those films, those television shows, where no heart and passion and intelligence has gone into it, as opposed to people that make it work. I cherry-pick what I love, particularly in the film, is Arishat, because when Ridley and I were talking about Arishat, he was saying, I don’t want some just beautiful, pretty girl. I want somebody with a bit of tenacity and strength about her. I said, well, you know, the Israeli women all go to the army they all have to spend two years. I watched a lot of Israeli drama, there are spectacular actors out there and found Yuval, who I didn’t know at all, she’s a dancer and an actress but has this incredible look that she but when she’s got the arrow I don’t doubt that for a second, yeah, and that. Those are the conversations you have with somebody as extraordinary as Ridley, who’s going to understand that, whereas some people will go, I don’t care, as long as they look good. I see myself as a fan, and I want to watch a film and I want to go, I don’t doubt for a second that she’s a warrior. I’m very lucky, really lucky, to work with Ridley and his incredible team. I still feel like the new girl on the block because he’s been working with Arthur and Janty for sort of 30-odd years.
Jillian Chilingerian: Sometimes you’ll watch something and you’re like, I can see it, but is it giving? I’m just not sensing that they would be in this situation, or that, they fit in this period. Everyone just fits so well in this period and understands the task at hand.
Kate Rhodes James: The touchstone for casting Lucius was the fact that he was the offspring of Russell Crowe. So, you couldn’t have the reveal and the audience go, what? That’s ridiculous. That would never in a million years. So you had to keep that at the back of your mind, because you could talk about an actor and go, oh yeah, they’d be brilliant and then you’d get to that point and go, no one will buy that. I think that people underestimate audiences. I mean, we’re all the audience, don’t they seem to think that audience is some mystical character that isn’t very clever and doesn’t understand things. We do notice when subliminally, we’ll go, how could she afford that car if she’s just sales, there are little things that are so important to not overlook so that you as an audience don’t get interrupted in the story.

Jillian Chilingerian: Going back to the first film because this is the sequel, are there doubts, this feels too on the nose for something that we already did in the first one. I imagine there might be those types of conversations because it is very hard if you’re casting someone that is the offspring of Russell Crowe, having those those values, or those things where you’re like, oh yeah, that’s his son.
Kate Rhodes James: I think, with those emperors, because when I say, you have to bear in mind Joaquin after all, they were related, and they existed. They’re real people, and what connects them is not the connection of, Oh, they’ve got to be like Joaquin Phoenix. They were all mad because they were riddled with syphilis. When you have intelligent enough actors that understand that’s where the insanity comes from rather than I’m going to play somebody who’s out of control, and they fully understood, there’s a great line from Caracalla when he’s talking to Macrinus, and he says, My brother is not well, you’ve got to be careful with what he says and then the next thing is, it’s all over, and so it’s remembering why Joaquin went down that road, and that was because of those reasons. The results are incredibly nourishing and if you’re going to go to the cinema, you want to be rewarded. I love it when you watch it, there are moments when you laugh because it’s just it’s so mad and so awful what’s happening, and it’s release, so you can’t ignore the first film you have to embrace it. Never in a million years, was a conversation of, we need this to be like this. That was just me going, I have to recognize what was achieved and embrace it.

Jillian Chilingerian: It’s very much the foundation. The characters in this one were not in the first, but the world feels so realized, where you’re like, oh, like, I could, feel a connection that this person was existing, because it’s just so well, written, the performances and all of that, where it completes the picture.
Kate Rhodes James: Yeah, good, good. That’s all one wants.

Jillian Chilingerian: I’m curious if in the process of doing this because I know casting is so different with everybody. I love the relationship between Connie and Pedro and I wanted more of them because they work so well together, do you go through, the chemistry, or, like, what are those processes?
Kate Rhodes James: We didn’t do anything like that, because Pedro was offer only but, the thing is, about this whole chemistry malarkey is that you can have endless chemistry reads, and they fall flat, and now and again they don’t. If you cast those characters well and they understand what their journey is, they will play that and we will buy it. I get very anxious about conversations about who’s attractive and who’s not because everyone’s attractive to somebody. When you look at films from the 70s and 80s, you know, When Harry Met Sally, would that get made today? That’s the most perfect couple, but we feel today that people have to be esthetically perfect to fall in love with each other, which is quite boring. So I always say, just go back to you know, Pedro was cast a obviously a magnificent actor, but also because he has a vulnerable side to him so very early on in the beginning of the film when they have taken over Numidia, that he looks down just as they’re about to burn all the bodies, and immediately this is costing him. That’s what you need so it’s our job to make sure that we cast the actor that can access that and then the relationship just goes from there.

Jillian Chilingerian: Yeah, yeah. There is such a good duality of they’re all trying to survive at the end of the day. I even love, like, Paul’s character, Lucius, and his relationship with, the doctor
Kate Rhodes James: yes, it’s so good, isn’t it? Those two,
Jillian Chilingerian: One of the first people that saw him and everyone that Pedro and Paul were in the scene with I was like if they fell in love, I would buy it.
Kate Rhodes James: Very lovable characters.

Jillian Chilingerian: I just find casting so interesting, and for, this film, when we get these legacy sequels that come back, and, you know, the whole casting of it, and is this the right time. When there’s enough time to wait and you get people like Paul and Pedro and Joe, the stars aligned.
Kate Rhodes James: Exactly the stars are aligned and you just can’t overthink these things, you just go with your instinct. Don’t take your eye off the ball, as in, why are we making this who’s going to watch it? Who wants to watch it?Casting, nobody knows what we do that’s why it’s taken so long to get recognition, and it’s quite hard to explain what we do, because it is a personality led business that we’re in, and there’s no reason why I work with Ridley and somebody else doesn’t particularly it’s just that our personalities work well together. They’ll have the same access, but the approach is very different, and there are some people that I work brilliantly with and some people that I don’t work well with at all, and that’s fine, you talk that down to experience, and you move on. But I see it as very creative, and part of the storytelling. Every person who’s cast affects somebody in the audience, especially when you bring couples together, we can have a friend at work, and then we meet their partner, and you go, Oh, interesting. Subliminally, not obviously, you wouldn’t say to their face so these little nuggets of life, it’s all of that that fascinates me. It’s anthropological in many ways.

Jillian Chilingerian: Thank you so much for walking through this process with me because, as you mentioned, casting, some people don’t know it, and everyone is so different.
Kate Rhodes James: Well, thank you. I’ve really enjoyed it. You’ve asked interesting questions.

Gladiator II is available to watch in theaters
You can read our review of the film here.